Alaskan grassroots ORGANiZiNG
An interview with Out North’s Gene Dugan and Jay Brause
by Kevin Cassity
(An abbreviated version is presented in the print edition of Alaska Humanity News.)
Shifts in political power, economies, social organization, and human consciousness often come not from political leadership, but from grassroots actions born from the ideas and convictions of individuals and initially small groups of individuals. From such ordinary beginnings outside the “corridors of power” come leaders like Nelson Mandela and Wangari Maathai, organizations like Amnesty international and Doctors Without Borders.
In this column, we’d like to take a closer look some Alaskan grassroots organizations and their attempts to create positive social change. Our intention is to better understand grassroots organizing and to help with the cross-fertilization of creative ideas and community resources.
In our first installment, we’ve interviewed Out North (ON) founder/director Gene Dugan and co-director Jay Brause. This interview comes on the heels of news that Gene and Jay will be leaving Out North, thus ushering in a new chapter in Out North’s development.
In this interview, Gene and Jay reflect on ON’s history and talk about the future of ON. Due to space limitations we’ve printed only a portion of the interview. Those who would like to read a more complete version of the hour and a half interview can find it online at http://www.humanitynews.net
First, a bit of history, from Out North publication, “An Out North Primer” :
Out North took flight from the imagination of Gene Dugan and other artist-activists who wanted to challenge and change Alaska through creation of contemporary art for under-served audience. in 1985, Out North Arts & Humanities was incorporated to promote that vision. it spent its first four years as a community-based project touring plays that examined gay and lesbian experience. in 1989, after a local professional theatre company closed its doors, Out North (ON) bought that theatre’s subscriber list and expanded its audience. in 1990, Jay Brause joined ON and began work to secure a permanent home for ON’s growing programs and audience. in 1991, ON moved to Grandview Gardens Cultural Center (a former neighborhood library) in a low-to-moderate income area of east Anchorage and began a writing program in an area youth detention facility. in 1993, ON expanded again by presenting new works by national and international artists in visual, performing and media discip and Jay Brause announced their plans to leave ON at the end of the year.
Since its founding in 1985, ON has weathered eight attacks on its public funding, winning in six of those fights and growing through it all. in 1992 it became the center of controversy while presenting Pomo Afro Homos, a gay African-American ensemble based in San Francisco. After the Anchorage Municipal Transit authorities refused to allow ON to place ads for the show on city buses, ON took the Municipality to court and won the right to place the ads. The mayor then vetoed a $19,000 Arts Commission’s grant to ON, but the Municipal Assembly unanimously overrode the mayor’s veto. From this struggle, ON received a national free speech award presented in New York at MoMA, and experienced an increase in national and local support. in 1997, after four more unsuccessful attempts to reduce or eliminate ON’s local public funding, a late night (and unobserved) move by Assembly opponents ushered in the most difficult funding battle in ON’s history. A $22,000 arts grant for ON was ON has received a number of awards for service and excellence, including a national award from the Rockefeller, Warhol, Nathan Cummings, Robert Sterling Clark, and Joyce Mertz-Gilmore Foundations for “Upholding the principle of freedom of expression in American life” (1993); Alaska Governor’s Award for the Arts (1996); Alaska Association for Volunteer Administration and BP (Golden Heart Award for volunteer program 1997); Best Live Theatre (Anchorage Daily News 1997); Best Arts Organization (Anchorage PRESS 1998); Metropolitan Community Church of Anchorage (Human Rights Award 2002); Standing Together Against Rape (Award for Community Service to Victims of Sexual Assault 2003); Planned Parenthood of Alaska (Award for Choice in Education 2005); Anchorage School District (Best Practices nominee, School Business Partnerships 2005) and Anchorage Mayor’s Arts Award (Youth Arts Education 2006).
AHN: Can you say a little more about how you got started, and your intentions, with an eye towards giving people an idea of how a grassroots organization might begin?
Gene: ON started as a desire to do one or two events a year that dealt with gay community issues in a theatrical way. it was Anchorage based, and then we got invitations to do productions around the state. Some data was collected in the spring of 85 ... in a statewide survey (of the gay and lesbian community) ... For that particular community at that time they did not see their lives positively portrayed in the popular media or anywhere and so there was a huge need from this community of people to see their lives on the stage, so one of the responses of Out North, Out North, was to serve this population.
AHN - Are there any experiences that stand out as most difficult or most rewarding in the time you’ve run ON.
Gene: I’ve been trying to think about a “most.” I haven’t come up with a “most” on either end of the spectrum ... (one experience that comes to mind is) watching the rehearsal of a play that we had commissioned… being performed on a balcony at a B & B overlooking the Asiatic after the play had been first done in New York and then at ON, where it was rewritten for touring, and redesigned, and then it went to Croatia where the play was actually set. We got to be there and be part of that.
Jay: And I think for me it was the juxtaposition of two forms of creating community that occurred on the same day. One was the funeral of my father, and we had a guest artist here that had a performance that night, and I had to excuse myself from the private gathering after that funeral service to attend to the artist and the audience we had here for a show called “interviewing the Audience” that was with Spaulding Gray. it was a brilliant night of connection between audience members who got to hear through skillful and humorous interviewing technique, their lives on stage before them. A hundred people in that room who totally enjoyed and were perplexed by their neighbors. And Spaulding made a comment, he had been here several days with his wife and his kids, skiing and such, and he said, “This place is an oasis,” meaning Out North. This is such a conservative state, and I didn’t realize how bad it was here, but then you’ve got this place.” And people r nd their heart and their soul has been powerful, and it happens time and time and time again here, so I’m perplexed by this question, what great moment, what meaningful moment do you want to hear.
Gene: They all seem small and insignificant, but to the people who experience it they’re life changing at times.
Jay: And that’s the privilege of doing this work. And we always connect the art to the audience with post show discussions, with workshops in the community, with the writing exercises that occur with artists or the would be artists. it’s not a simple matter of thinking that it’s about an attainment. it never has been.... it’s as simple as, and I know it will be offensive to some of your readers, but think of being a young gay person who for the first time sees two men kiss on the stage. this is a live real event, and that was in San Francisco for me in 1977. As a heterosexual person you grow up with that all the time, your mother your fathers model to you, it’s shown to you, it’s displayed as good, wholesome, God said, ‘Let there be,’ but for someone who’s gay or lesbian you get all the other messages, it’s wrong, it’s devious, it’s deceitful, it’s evil, it’s spiritually invalid by people who teach in spiritual traditions and religious Catherine Stadem, in an Anchorage Daily News review, said, “ Out North has raised the consciousness of the community on the subject of homosexuality, supported local playwriting, brought in cutting-edge performers from Outside and, after 20 years, has evolved into a place where making good art regardless of sexual orientation is the focus.” She’s one of the grand dames of criticism in theatre here in the state and for her to write that last year was really touching for us. Not that we’ll ever negate the importance of working for GLBT (gay/lesbian/bisexual/transsexual) issues, it’s incredibly important, but she’s also recognizing we do more than that, and I think that’s pretty good.
AHN: Where has your resistance in the community come from?
Spiritual ayatollahs, with ayatollah not being pejorative against a religion but rather to represent a class of people who believe they have God’s answers for the lives of people ... also fundamentalist preachers. The resistance comes from a culture that can devalue a whole people. it’s right next door to us.... Visiting artists are a little shocked to find us between two fundamentalist churches and not in a liberal neighborhood, one with cafe’s and art stores… rather than in an arts district.
AHN: Has there been any progress for you (in regards to) living with (religious/community) attitudes and actions that feel violent?
Gene: Not with the current legislature.
Jay: Not with the government of this country. We’ve understood decades before other people what the threat was to the democratic fiber of this country by the religious extremists of this country. We’re the canaries in the mine.... We have cultural and militant terrorists within our own borders who would go to war for who they believe to be Jesus Christ. it’s frightening. Do we reconcile with that element of our country? No, there’s no reconciliation. There is a civil war going on. Fortunately it’s a war of words and politics and money and power and influence.... Like Jews in Weimar Republic, we’re living in a bubble of growing tolerance, but I wonder if, like Jews in holocaust Europe, if we became too great a power, if we became too much accepted, if there might not be a reaction. I know that sounds very dark and very fearful, but the human history of one society after another has been the history of a reactive society taking away the gains of a minority. AHN: How have you changed personally over the time you’ve run ON?
Gene: Good question. I don’t know.
AHN: Has (this experience) been transformative?
Gene: Not transformative, but definitely changing from the focus of what I thought ON would be and would become to what it actually is. I thought it was going to be just an all-volunteer (organization) without a home that did one or two productions a year. After doing some gay issue plays, we looked at doing some things that dealt with topics in Latin America, political topics. And then sands kind of shifted and we got pushed one way and floated another way, and we got involved in a lot of issue oriented crossovers with art in the community, to the point that we decided to start bringing in professional artists from Outside who were doing work that was not being seen in Alaska, work that we felt was important, in order to start getting local artists to create their own work rather than replicating (works) that they could “take off the shelf.” it was a shift for me in seeing where the organization would go and also where art and culture in the community (would go).
AHN: How did that shift happen?
Gene: As much through my whim as through the support of the community.
Jay: I would say also from the deficit that you sometimes ran into. Where was the need? it’s not always asset based, but sometimes, “is there a hole?”
Gene: Right. Yeah, before the great AIDS plays, “As is, and “The Normal Heart,” we had a script that we tried to cast to bring some light to the AIDS issue and we couldn’t cast it locally. People were too afraid. that was a turning point where we said, okay, if we don’t have some people in town who are brave enough to do some of this, we need to bring people in....
Jay: What’s critical is that we were in and of the community making that invitation. It wasn’t as if it was something impressed upon the community from Outside. I grew up here from the time I was five years old and am well aware of preserving our own position. Sometimes it gets parochial, quite frankly, but many times it’s right because it’s trying to avoid colonialization. We are kind of third world in a way in our location geographically and in fact do have third world parts of our culture and economy. So I think that’s always a sensitive judgment call. So it’s not always being proactive; sometimes it’s being reactive that lets you make your best choices.
Gene: There was not only a lack of work for this gay and lesbian population to see themselves on stage, partly because they wouldn’t do it themselves. There wasn’t the bravery in the community to step out and say this is what I want to do.
Jay: And why was there (no bravery). There was no law that protected us in housing and employment, in our relationships…
Gene: ... there were people losing their jobs at that time…
Jay: ... and you still can (lose your job). In the military, as you know, you can’t serve this country right now, not that I think we should, but I mean it’s not an option for an openly gay or lesbian person in this country. I mean still, in 2006. in 1975 and 1976 we’d gone through the whole charter process in Anchorage in which we’d included sexual orientation as a protected class, I was part of that effort, and it got vetoed by then Mayor George Sullivan and they couldn’t sustain an override. I was looking at joining the Anchorage Equal Rights Commission that was newly formed, but I didn’t do that and years later when this opportunity came around to work for ON, in 1990, I began to realize, this is exactly what I wanted to do on the Anchorage Equal Rights Commission--rubbing elbows, spending time with people of different cultures, race, ethnicity, people of different class, people who had a different experience in this life than myself. ON became that place. ted from your nationality, your ethnicity, from within that language group to someone who’s gay and wants to see themself on the stage. Making the work happen where people create a bridge in their heart and mind is difficult work. We tend to separate, even those in the peace community-- they separate on different lines, politics, religious or spiritual attributes, whether you’re vegan or not, how pure are you in your food. We have these ways we divide. Our work is to find ways to get us in the same room. It’s never easy.
Gene: And at times we’re surprised at the positive reactions we get to our efforts. We were approached by VFA Arts in D.C. when they lost their affiliates in Alaska and they asked us to be the affiliate for arts and disability in the State, part of its international network, and we said, “Well, that’s not really what we do.” And they said, “Well, yes it is. You’re working with kids with learning disabilities, with youth programs, with performances, you’ve got a lift in the building that shows you’ve already taken that into consideration, you’ve got performers on stage who’ve got disabilities, you’ve got filmmakers with disabilities, you’ve got gay filmmakers with disabilities in your program, you’re covering it.” That was a proud moment. They really had to talk us into it, to take on this, on top of everything else that we do, but yes, it’s been rewarding.
AHN: Being as (running Out North) is difficult work, how do you sustain the energy to do it?
Jay: Well, we’re leaving (laughs). We’ve been burned out how many times? Fifteen dozen times? Jesus said 70 times seven for forgiving your neighbor. I think it’s basically that for us when it comes to swinging back from being burned out.
Gene: We’ve had several drafts of angry letters of resignation over the years…
Jay: ... to submit to our board.
Gene: But this time it wasn’t an angry resignation
Jay: It wasn’t. It was about making positive changes for ourselves.... I would really want to share with your reader that… if you really are a leader, it’s difficult. If you’re within a gang it’s easier. And a gang can be all running down George Bush over a pint, a gang can be all doing your yoga exercises with your zen master, a gang can be gang banging, but when you stand to leadership, when you in fact say here I am--and there’s not necessarily someone behind you--it’s easy to get burnt, and where do you find replenishment? My father was in the religious biz. He was a progressive minister. I claim no faith now, but I have a wellspring of worth taught from years as a child of knowing that I had intrinsic worth. And that’s why I was able to deal the (cultural) message that taught me that as a gay person I didn’t have value. What was greater was that message that I was valuable. I think if you’ve got that at the core you can always spring Gene: ... gay people telling us we were doing horrible things for the community because of it ...
Jay: ... rocking the boat, you know, “It’s dangerous for all of us if you flip the canoe, all these kinds of images,” and we went over to our local restaurant here, Sweet Pink Pepper, and we were sitting down, crying in our rice and feeling miserable for ourselves, and somebody caught our eye, a guy we didn’t know. He was at the ordering station and we were sitting down, and he caught our eye, and he wandered over to us, and (said), “I know you don’t know me, and it’s not important, I just want to thank you for the work that you’re doing. I know it must be tough.” I’m connected to the tears that I felt, the tears at such a deep and meaningful thanks for the risks that we took, the economic damage that we incurred, even (our) life safety, we felt, (was) at risk at times.
Gene: You could have given us a million dollars, and it wouldn’t have meant as much.
Jay: And unfortunately for our opposition in this state, he refueled us. That simple act, and it’s something I’d want everyone to understand who reads this interview. It doesn’t have to be that you give up your life for the cause, it can be just that simple act of thanking someone who took up their life for that cause, for you. Just buy them a cup of coffee sometime and say thank you. Especially when it’s unexpected .... If it’s Ethan Berkowitz who went on the line for you or some spiritual leader in the community who you think has it right. Have you ever thanked them? In that “shit happens, good things happen” sort of a way, for us on the receiving end, it’s an immensely important gift.
Gene: Another incident like that was when we were in front of the assembly to get their vote for purchasing this building and it was the same time as a funeral in the arts community, attended by our friends in the arts community, that filled the Atwood Hall--that’s how big it was--and we knew that the arts community wasn’t going to be there and we thought “Oh, well.” The surprise was that our neighbors, people from this neighborhood came, and they spoke out saying that they wanted this facility in their neighborhood. They talked about how good it was to have an arts group in their neighborhood. and parents talked about what great things we’ve done for their kids, and people ... came out because that meant something to them.... That was extremely gratifying.....
Jay: When Dan Sullivan, who was opposed to us getting the building, asked “Well, how many are here tonight--because he didn’t want to deal with all the testimony-- to testify in behalf of Out North, and three quarters, five sixths, of the house hands went up, and he said, ‘Oh it looks like about 150 people or so.” That’s incredible for an assembly issue, to have that kind of showing ... that’s grassroots ... and it comes from people deciding for themselves that (the support has been) earned.
AHN: How has the Anchorage community changed in the time ON has been here?
Jay: There was a story today about a new group, City Lights Theatre, out in Palmer that started to ... do this play that got ... censored by the Valley Performing Arts Board, the theatre out in Wasilla last year, and (so) a new company formed.... And I smiled… when I read that review because I said, “ I feel that a child has been born that’s of these loins,” from ON. Whether they recognize the parentage or not, I know in some way our being here and staying here has been an effect to that company’s existence .... People out there of moderate or liberal disposition, who want to see something more challenging than just another musical are saying, “My life has a void. I want something that speaks to me.” And they’ve asked for this company to be that. And an audience showed up, and they’re feeling pretty good, and they should be because they just had that experience. But i’ll tell you what. Twenty years ago it wouldn’t have happened .... We wereGene: Yeah, we’re constantly being told, “Why don’t you do this show, because (whispers) we can’t do it.” Vagina monologues was one of those. So we did it. It was this big wicked thrill in Anchorage. We sold out. We extended. And then there were other productions happening in Anchorage. It kind of opened the door. We’ve done that several times in our history.
Jay: Posters were being torn down for that production. This was just like five or six years ago. Postal carriers who weren’t delivering the mailing carton that we sent out on a route, and I can name you the street, out in Eagle River. You know, things like that were going on for the Vagina Monologues. You know, it wasn’t a lesbian work or something. What we got from that though, was that both Planned Parenthood of Alaska an Standing Together Against Rape both recognized that as having really contributed to the dialogue about women’s lives in this community, and honored us with awards in 2003 and 2005. And we were so taken by that. My mother was born before women had the right to vote in this country, and it always struck me that here was this person who was a second class citizen, and in her lifetime had that change occur, and how much more work there is still to be done to value all people....
AHN: Are there any other organizations in Anchorage that have stepped out in ways have helped you and heartened you in your work?
Gene: There are many organizations that have an affinity for what we do… sometimes we’re able to work together, and sometimes we’ve got to do our own thing too.
Jay: I think one area where we provided leadership, and the fruits of that labor are being seen, is with kids who are marginalized, economically, racially, and with disability, and also incarceration. We started in 1991 working with a direct in-reach program with McLaughlin Youth Center, way before other groups were doing that, and didn’t get a dime from it. It’s just that we felt really strongly about it because Gene and I had both experienced growing up, friends who got off on the wrong track, who damaged their lives and their relationships to people, who became what is called “criminal.” But we believe steadfastly that you can never give up on anyone. So we started that work, and we watched our peers start doing it too--not copycat, they have their own way and reason for doing it--but I know that they’ve seen that you can do that work and it makes sense, and they’ve stepped into the role as well. Sometimes it’s competitive. They get funds now that we u With regards to other groups that have been helpful to us in terms of their own work, Cyranos, certainly, has put on more difficult work as part of the repertoire of doing contemporary American theatre. They come at it from an artistic practice, not one that ties necessarily to having a social impact. We’re deliberate about that. For them it’s more like an effect. But we are soul-mates in a way as companies. The University has taken on, occasionally, some work that is ... much riskier than I think they might have done without our example, and before this sounds like tooting our own horn, which I don’t want (to do), each company takes risk that is appropriate for their audience. Each group takes risk that advances their own edge as they feel they can.
For us, some of the other places we draw some solace.... The Design Forum has brought up some really great idea people that are food for the mind. Bunnell Street Gallery down in Homer is an incredible organization.
Gene: Beyond our Anchorage borders, what’s been really important for us in our growth as an organization and our ability to serve the Anchorage community is that we’ve become very well connected nationally and internationally (via) The National Performance Network, the National Association of Media Arts and Culture, Network of Cultural Centers of Color, Youth Media Network, and through some very specific venues throughout the country and overseas.
Jay: So it’s not always here. It’s also the world community that we take our cue from.
AHN: What would you like to see in terms of the future of ON?
Jay: Affordable housing for cultural workers. We have an arts and culture district that doesn’t yet encompass that, and it needs to. The new Mountain View arts and culture district really needs to get on the ball and make sure that this company is part of envisioning how artists will be part of that community. In order to create a creative community you have to have more than the condition of a space in which to create work. You also have to have a livelihood, and artists by and large choose a life that’s certainly more difficult than many, where there’s no salary schedule or benefits. And for us as community to turn a blind eye to it’s creative forces isn’t a wise practice. ON has been working for years now and I’m hoping that my successor will be successful in getting, a village if you will, a housing community together, where people of creative conscience can live together and start creating that space. That’s really critical. It’s something I’mAHN: How have you been working towards that?
Jay: In 97 the board changed the articles of incorporation to include affordable housing, and that was approved through the iRS, so that’s a really important thing… that means a lot legally. Then we did that demonstration project of moving a home that was going to be destroyed because of a renewal project in Mountain View and we relocated it, new foundation, fixed it up, and sold it to a First Time Home Buyer, and did it successfully. I was the contract manager for it. That was the same year we were under attack for all this stuff going on and I was so busy keeping the ball in the air it was impossible to move that forward. We started working with some national consultants. We got some national funding to do some studies. We identified a space to do a project. And now we’re at a point where we’ve done the feasibility studies, all that type of stuff, we’re ready to move forward with financing .... That’s the next step. To me it was bittersweet toAHN: What’s the criteria for that type of housing? Does an artist have to show work?
Jay: Yep, and they have to show intention--and (in this intention we are) different than many of our colleagues and friends-- to give back to the community. It’s not just about getting. You have to be purposeful about what your intention is--in what you will give as far as arts education to youth in the area, as far as what you might do for installation or your performance work in the community. We’re looking at making a quid quo pro of sorts on some level of how you would be part of that community. To what degree do you need to make a livelihood from your art? There’s all sorts of standards on that, and we’d probably choose a pretty minimal one. A threshold usually taken is that at least 10% of your household income is derived from your work and your art. And then that you have some sort of portfolio that shows your training and your abilities, and it’s adjudicated by a panel of peers. There’s going to be a screening committee that does a financial reviewGene: There are a lot of artists who are hermits, but this is not the kind of project for a hermit artist.
Jay: This is why we’d like this to happen in a place like Mountain View, which is supposed to be about building community, and artists can very much be part of that. We know this. We’ve already had artist, visiting artists, stay long term in houses that we’ve had in Mountain View. They start playing basketball in the neighborhood, the whole thing, (artists) who knew who was scoring what drugs and who sells what on the street and who knows who’s in what gang, (artists) who knew the life blood of the community. Those are the artists we want to work with. They’re not people who come to walk on the stage and then go to a wine and cheese party afterward. That’s not what we want. And that’s what a lot of people think artists are about.
AHN: It seems that in this transition to a new directorship of ON, you’re offering a lot of hard work, risk, vulnerability, and probably not a lot of financial reward--a difficult job. Do you see people stepping up, taking an interest in filling those shoes? What is your sense of how the passing of the baton might happen or if it might happen at all?
Gene: I think we’ve been connected enough nationally and internationally that ... we don’t really have any fear that there will be nobody who will step up to the plate.
Jay: Because he’s the artistic side and I’m the business side (of ON), it’s more complex for me because there’s real stresses and strains for organizations in these type of transitions. A huge one is, “How do you honor the founder’s vision and at the same time not have it cast in concrete.” We’re creative people, so our successors necessarily will be creative forces as well. They’re going to want to imprint this company, and I would not want to see anyone hired for this company who thinks their job is simply to follow what Lennon set out, you know, here’s the people’s vision of the utopian state and you will follow the orders. No. One of the reasons we knew we had to leave the state is that it will be tough to watch those changes if we were close. This is the time for the child to step out on his or her own, and for us not to see the foibles, for us not to see the missteps, for us not to say, “Ohmygod what did they just do.” We recently We’re wondering if we might not engage the (Anchorage) community and say, ‘Here’s what we think we should do. What do you think?” We’re still putting the pieces together on it, but we’re hoping we can do it in late April. Leadership of this organization, staff and board and key artists are now very busy on trying to see if we can put together with this consultant friend of ours a two day “empanelment” of our community to talk about the “what next.” This is the first time we’re talking about it publicly. This is a recent idea. it’s just one week old. We’re still running it through board at this time, but we have the consultant willing to come. We know the organization is going to have to have a big bump up in what are called “unrestricted funds.” A lot of money that comes into an organization like ours is restricted by a grant or a donor, or it’s for a specific purpose, and you can actually wind up not having the money to pay a salary, or the light bill, and if we’re going to leave to our successors the tool they need more than any other, it’s cash flow. We’re going to have to ask our community, “Do you value this organization enough to help us put that money in the bank?” We’ve got to ask that question, and we don’t know what the answer will be. Because without sufficient cash flow, our salaries now are not competitive for a national call for our replacements. That’s not a criticism of the organization, it’s a fact of life. (Director salaries) have got to be bumped up by atGene: We pay light, heat, gas, water, trash removal like anyone else. It’s not a luxury.
Jay: And then there’s a third element that’s so critical. Gene has been constrained time and time again from being able to bring in an artist whose work would really excite artists and students and audience here because we simply didn’t have the money. If we really want to bring something here that we know would excite the imagination of an audience there has to be more money. There’s a huge shift that has occurred in the working environment of the non-profit community in this country. It’s been a very calculated casualty of the Republican philosophy of this country, which is in dominance right now, which is “local communities must support what is locally enjoyed.” Well, local communities don’t have those resources either, so the arts and quite a few other areas--what we call ‘the life of the mind’--have been underfunded in this country. Certainly we’re in one of those fields. We’re at the bottom of the heap as far as wage scale and stuff We need to be advertising for our replacements by June. That can be out of the bag. The board will put out the announcements for positions in June. We’ll still be here, we’ll still be working, we’ll still going to be trying to raise money, do all these these things for the transition of the organization.
AHN: Can you say more about the role of the board?
Gene: They hire and fire us. but that’s more for another issue.
Jay: We feel very strongly there needs to be a retooling of the business models available for entrepreneurship in the non-profit community. “Risk and return” it’s called in the business world, and we don’t have return for risk in the non-profit field. We have been as entrepreneurial as any of our friends who started up businesses, and at the end of 20 years of work we walk away with, the word is “bupkis” (nothing). We have no equity. and as a social justice issue it is profoundly affecting the non-profit community....
Gene: Somebody asked “You’re going to cash in your retirement?” “What retirement?”
Jay: We didn’t get health insurance till two and half years ago and that’s quite typical for smaller non-profits.... It’s a tough area to work in and yet the entrepreneurial risk and reward system doesn’t exist. That’s why we want to make sure there’s more money in the bank, so our successors are treated better. I’m not mad at the board on this.... It’s a systemic problem. Here we are trying to change the world and we do nothing to help ourselves. It’s a problem.
10 - AHN: Can you say anything more about your future plans?
Gene: If we told you we’d have to kill you.
Jay: One thing we can let people know is we’re holding onto our house. Regardless of where we go we’re holding on to our house. We haven’t left alaska even if we leave it. who knows. We may even keep our voter registration here.
AHN: Anything else you’d like to say?
Gene: Community development is what our organization is all about. Art is how it happens.
Jay: I think among a lot of your readers there’s this real innate respect for native cultures. The idea that the more we can give back to the land, the more in sync we are with what our natural rhythms are as a people and a species. And I’d like to interject for people who have that type of observation on life that “Where is art in these systems but front and center of the fire?”--the storytelling, the dance, the drum, all those things are artifacts of art, language itself, and yet we displace it rather than be with it. If you want to understand something of what we call “primitive culture” and (see) where they’ve got it right, they never separated art from life. People felt badly for me having gone from the peace and justice, environmental, civil rights work that I cut my eye teeth on, and I went into the arts and they said, “How could you do that? How could you go into something so unimportant?”